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More deadbait thoughts

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More deadbait thoughts

Post by healdy on Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:42 am

Hi

Recently all my rods have been fished on the long link - running rig using a roberts run ring. This is a simple set up and to be honest it has been working pretty well. However i am not one to sit still so thought i would question it on here and compare thoughts etc.


Firstly - most of my fish have been caught at close range - just over the shelf type fishing - is this the best rig or any variations which are tangle free - does a float offer a more delicate presentation or not - thoughts opinions please??

My traces seem to kink or at least bend after a fish - this it seems to me seriously affects the rigs tangle free properties and maybe also weakens the trace. Do you instantly change in these circumstances - it seems a waste of new hooks but i suppose they can be re-used - is this [ the kinking] something you worry about?

My baits have been either spratts or sardines - however everybody i meet keeps singing the praises of smelt - do you guys also find them special if so what is it about these pale innocuous looking fish that make them so special?

On the subject of deadbaits - i have found that especially the sardines become very soft once they have thawed and don't withstand a second cast - i have been wrapping the tail hook in elasticated sewing cotton - but still arent entirely happy - Is there any other dodge i am not aware of? What are those plastic bait flags for and do they help?

Finally i have dabbled with popping up my baits - i don't like the balsa stick method and prefer the red pop up balls. My question is re where you have this little red ball and does it matter - i have been threading mine right onto the nose of the fish but this is fiddly. I noticed on an earlier post that [i think it was Ken] crimps his to a short piece of wire which loops around the hook - i presume this means the ball floats several inches above the fish - to me this seems unnatural - Am i right to presume that this is what you do - any thoughts?

I wouldnt normally swap thoughts like this i would just use trial and error for myself - but that is what forums are about so thought i would share my thoughts and see how they compare to your thoughts/experiences.


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Re: More deadbait thoughts

Post by noodle on Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:49 pm

rig sounds fine but for over the shelf stuff try the cd/bellars rig Wink

as for the unnatural bit well two things

how natural are mackeral or sardines in the 1st place (dont point out a fish is a fish), the salt content of them alone should make them seem different to a dead roach
and b

how natural do they look

for me naturals and pike really dont matter

over the wire kinking what wire test are you using im on 40lb carbo flex 28lb and 50lb seven strand and the only one i can say gets beaten up quickly is the 28lb seven strand just up the wire strength if youre concerned about durability it wont put the pike off
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Re: More deadbait thoughts

Post by NIDGE MAC on Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:52 pm

some good info there noodle... Respect rep for that buddy....
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Re: More deadbait thoughts

Post by mark on Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:28 pm

hey up healdy mate

firstly nobody likes a kinked trace but the pike dont tend to mind. depending on where its kinked depends on wether or not i'll change mine. if its just after the second hook i do tend to change it, same as if its kinked close to the swivel as that will stop the rig from being tangle free and sometimes cause tangles.

floats do offer good sensitive indication, but if i'm using more than 1 rod i'll still tie the running paternoster like you and still use an alarm to make sure i dont miss any takes whilst gazing around. however there are other float set ups around for different situations. i tend to use a float to lift my mainline over obsticales like reed beds n steep shelfs. i use the same rig as you for 90% of my fishing as its very sensitive and versitile its known as an anti tangle rig and is also very good for long distance work.

as for smelt, i dont know why they are so good but they are, most anglers rate them but i'm not over keen on the especially the smaller ones of around 3-4", although they are good for the sail float as you work the bait and its always moving so it'll catch the eye of near by pike

i've not used the bait flag doofers and i doubt they'll make much difference to a sardine, a hook could still easily pull through the back of a fish. from what i've seen of the flags it looks as though they'll stop the hook slipping back out a bit like if you threaded a worm on a hook you would put a bit of elastic to stop it unhooking its self which doesn't happen to dead baits so in my eyes its just a money spinner. but i have seen a device that looks like it will do the job but a bit fiddly. you take a loop of line and lasoo the tail of the fish then the other end of the loop is atatched to a clip near the trace. the loop is shorter than your trace, which take the wieght of the fish instead of it being on the hooks. when you cast out the fish its the bottom and the loop comes off of the clip and it layes like any other bait except its got a loop of line around the tail, which i don't like the look of either. i know its hard to understand so i'll show you next time we're out

as for pop ups thats the way its pretty much done mate. it may not look natural but it does work. pike dont seem to be as inteligent as carp and seem to act on impulse rather than experience

next time we get out i'll show you a few things if thats what you want to know, i'm not one for banging on about how things should be done n stuff but i'll be happy to share my preferences with you and see what you make of that. one of the min reasons it took me so long to get into pike fishing is all the set ups n tackle is rather crude n not at all like carp fishing in that respect and i know your a tackle tart mate hahaha just have faith you are doing well with your pike and there isn't much more you can improove on as much as you'd like to
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deadbait stuff

Post by healdy on Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:39 pm

Noodle

Many thanks for the reply; just been looking at the colin dyson or similar vic bellars rig as a result of your post - maybe its my inexperience but i cant see why this is superior to the running rig - what are the advantages?


Take your point re the natural or not which is food for thought - though obviously the lures will be moving and not sitting waiting to be inspected. I suppose something we say when carping with regards for example as to why plastic corn is so effective could be relevant ie fish don't have hands do they and if they want to know what something is or whether it is edible then they have to pick it up in the mouth and sample it don't they.

Thanks for the info re the wire - mine arent lasting very long at all before i get some form of kinking and as i said this worries me whith regards to the trace tangling on the cast as well as weakness concerns.

Once again thanks for the input - some would say i over complicate things - but challenging what i am doing is part of what keeps my fishing evolving and hopefully i improve as a result.

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Deadbaits

Post by healdy on Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:50 pm

Hi Mark

thanks for the input fella - like i said just challenging my ideas in order to try improve.

everybody does seem to swear by smelt so will have to get some and see how they do compared to other baits.

I will have to look at the lasoo thing next time we are out - maybe i will just have to change bait more often [tight git!] but i seem to get quite a lot of tearing where the hook rips down the body of the fish - and i don't like the thought of too much elastic on the fish. Maybe a bigger hook would help i have been using 8's on the sprats and 6's on the sardines??

I will buy a packet of those flags and see what if any difference they make.

Healdy


ps - what do you mean tackle tart scratch Wink
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Re: More deadbait thoughts

Post by mark on Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:21 pm

hahaha sorry wrong tart hahaha

yeah a size 4 may be more suitable i got some the other day for bigger baits n stuff.

as for bait get as big a variaty as poss get down to bobco's before the sale ends and get a few different packs while they're cheap, that'll get you infront and then just top up as you go
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Re: More deadbait thoughts

Post by noodle on Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:30 pm

the flags were originally intended to help keep lives on as well as adding a little colour not much use for deads in all honesty red electrical tape doubled over and cut to shape size will work just as well and be sooooo much cheaper

smelt its a fish same as everything else on its day it will work but id much sooner have sardines and use a fresh one every cast if needed they are cheap enough

as for kinked wire if its kinked it needs changing regardless of where the kink is as it is now massivly weakend. a bend in the wire isnt as serious but id change it anyway

the bellars dyson rig is a free running rig but the float is directly below the run ring so it keeps your mainline well away from anything on the shelf which may catch or damage your line

for the same rig with a twist google pully rigs for catfishing a good way to fish a livey at long range but does have problems where pike are concerned

for full size sardines the hooks should be fine size wise the tearing happens

in all honesty bait wise sod the bait dealers off and get to the local morrisons for baits sardines can be bought frozen in 2.5 kilo bags for about 3 quid for 20-30 baits or something stupid like that, mackeral should be as big as you can get and then cut to size ill use them up to around 18 inches long on big trebles 2-2/0 half baits usually see me on 4's. just match the hook to the size of the bait its the same principle as any other type of fishing
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deadbaits

Post by healdy on Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:55 pm

Cheers Noodle

I think that i need to perfect my trace making then changing traces won't seem such a problem.

I will also put a new deadbait on each cast if needed rather than hope the old one is ok - nothing worse than leaving a rod out not sure whether the bait has come off, or slipped , torn etc

Funny what you said about smelt - i look at them and can't see why they are so attractive - but everybody swears by them Wink

I have been trying to match hooksize to bait - hence the 8's with the sprats and 6's with sardine - just wanted to see if i was being a bit cautious with the size.


Thanks again for the input.

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Re: More deadbait thoughts

Post by Stotty on Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:22 am

noodle wrote:the flags were originally intended to help keep lives on as well as adding a little colour not much use for deads in all honesty red electrical tape doubled over and cut to shape size will work just as well and be sooooo much cheaper


Post mans red rubber bands cut up

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Re: More deadbait thoughts

Post by nightwatchman on Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:59 am

Hi Healdy

Rigs
If youíre fishing close in using a free running rig using john Roberts ledger ring is a great start. If youíve got a lot of snags in front of you could use a float to keep your line off the bottom?

Traces
I used to have problems with my traces kinking after every fish when I used use Fox easy twist wire but since moving over to Fox carbo flex I rarely get the problem now. But if I do I just cut off the trebles and swivels and make another trace up.

Smelt
Pike love smelt. Apparently its due to the smell, which some say smells like cucumber?

Sardines
Try tying your top treble to the baits tail with some mono. Itíll last for ages.

Popped up bait.
Those red balls can go anywhere. Like you say a bit fiddly getting them on the nose of the bait, so setting them just above makes it a bit easier.

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Re: More deadbait thoughts

Post by redrost on Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:36 pm

Stotty beat me to the red rubber postie bands.

Re sardines there is a product available from electronic parts shops that is a freezing spray. This can be used to refreeze the tail hook area, Not cheap though. Another way is to replace the top treble with a big single. 1/0 or 2/0 this can then be inserted into the vertebrae so taking a firmer hold. Not guaranteed though.

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Re: More deadbait thoughts

Post by Stotty on Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:54 pm

redrost wrote:Stotty beat me to the red rubber postie bands.

Re sardines there is a product available from electronic parts shops that is a freezing spray. This can be used to refreeze the tail hook area, Not cheap though. Another way is to replace the top treble with a big single. 1/0 or 2/0 this can then be inserted into the vertebrae so taking a firmer hold. Not guaranteed though.

nw thats a good idea i use Sardines a lot i think this is the stuff Pipe Freezing Spray.

http://www.wickes.co.uk/Pipe-Freezing-Spray/invt/424922?source=123_4

its £10 from Wickes

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Re: More deadbait thoughts

Post by noodle on Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:58 pm

Stotty wrote:
redrost wrote:Stotty beat me to the red rubber postie bands.

Re sardines there is a product available from electronic parts shops that is a freezing spray. This can be used to refreeze the tail hook area, Not cheap though. Another way is to replace the top treble with a big single. 1/0 or 2/0 this can then be inserted into the vertebrae so taking a firmer hold. Not guaranteed though.

nw thats a good idea i use Sardines a lot i think this is the stuff Pipe Freezing Spray.

http://www.wickes.co.uk/Pipe-Freezing-Spray/invt/424922?source=123_4

its £10 from Wickes

its cheaper putting a fresh one on lol, plus it doesnt work all that well
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Re: More deadbait thoughts

Post by healdy on Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:35 am

hi

thanks for all the input. After much thought i have decided to go with fox carbo flex in 30lb - and crimps - let you know how i get on Wink


One other thing - i have spent ages looking for some bait elastic - none of the 'sewing shops' in Leeds have it - any ideas where i can get some - daft newbie face icon Wink

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Re: More deadbait thoughts

Post by Stotty on Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:57 am

healdy wrote:hi

thanks for all the input. After much thought i have decided to go with fox carbo flex in 30lb - and crimps - let you know how i get on Wink


One other thing - i have spent ages looking for some bait elastic - none of the 'sewing shops' in Leeds have it - any ideas where i can get some - daft newbie face icon Wink

healdy

good old ebay Smilie Angel

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Re: More deadbait thoughts

Post by healdy on Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:16 am

Hi

thanks - i have just bought some off ebay - it was doing my head in trawling the market geek asking women in sewing shops !!!! lol!

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Re: More deadbait thoughts

Post by Stotty on Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:21 am

we do try on good old UKFF

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Re: More deadbait thoughts

Post by slimjim on Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:02 pm

There is nothing wrong with the rig you use as its a good cast anywhere rig as you can fish it in weed as deep as your ledger link.
as for smelt I swear by it, don't know why it works but it does, it could be down to its curious sent but I have caught pike on boiles maggot and even corn so don't get too caught up with it as a move can be more productive than staying put and changing bait type

A tip for secureing a bait is to dry your bait with a cloth and tie some pva string around the top treble this way when you get a run you will strike the bait off and hook the fish,this will leave the fish with no leverage to dislodge the hook. as when pike shake thier heads and a bait is still attatched to the trebles the pressure of the water on the bait can pop the hooks out.
good luck and I hope this helps. Wink
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